James Barclay

[Jen]

National service for those that continally reoffend, they obviously haven't learnt their lesson if they keep doing it; and a career in the army or such is better than being a career criminal.

I don't agree with smacking children for discipline but I do believe that gangs of youths who hang around on street corners terrorising residents should have their backside smacked by all the locals who want rid of them. Most teenagers who hang around in my town are all bigger than me and to be honest with two small children in tow I often feel intimidated. Something needs to be done to get them to move on and if the poeple at number 12, 13,14 and so forth were to go onto the street and confront them maybe that would do the trick.
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A very happy Yule to all!!
Eat, drink and be merry everyone.

[Lizzy]

Scary thing is it's not just yob boys. My friend's hubby and his mate got beaten up by a gang of teenage girls the other night. They couldn't retaliate because how would it look if a full grown man hit a teenage girl.

The police got called but there was little they could do.

The justice system is so badly flawed but I have no idea what the answer is. Maybe National Service would make a difference, but then you see the brawls some squaddies get into and you think maybe it wouldn't......
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Listen to Lizzy, she's always right! as said by Jovial

[Selik]

National Service is definately not the way to go! The armed forces aren't what they used to be and are already showing areas in which there are problems of bullying and violence towards other people.
The armed forces used to be about discipline and respect, but they're just as flawed as the rest of society nowadays.

I do however agree that a lot of the yobs on the streets should get an ass whooping for the way they treat people who aren't rowdy.
Young children and old people... you can often see they're intimidated and often in some cases scared to go near these kids, and that's definately not right.
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"I sit on my arse, not my head." - Baron Gresse.

[DeathJunior]

[Lizzy]

Firstly DJ I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty of putting the html at the start of the quote so it is clear which bit of your post is the quote.

Now to the issues you raise.

The puppy training scenario hugely oversimplifies what are very complex emotional reponses evoked in the puppy. Animals have very complex emotional/ behavioural/ social interactions that have become much better understood over the last 20 years. This is an area I know alot about. People, of course, do have different emotional responses, however, the point was to illustrate the concept of timeout and positve reinforcement as very effective training tools to teach discipline.

Do not underestimate the power of exclusion. Timeout/ ignoring is not a softly softly approach. A small child believes they are the centre of the world and to be excluded for a short while from the attention of the parent/carer etc is a very powerful tool of discipline, as is rewarding good behaviour. I have seen this time and time again with my own children and those of my friends.

As to the whole juvenile deliquency issue. Well, the kid that is likely to turn into the youth offender of tomorrow is the toddler strapped in the pushchair in the highstreet, while their parent is on the mobbie, they scream, they get told off, they scream, they get a smack, they sceam, they get a bag of sweets to keep them quiet. They have no idea what constitutes right or wrong behaviour. They get inconsistent messages.


This article, though 10 years old is quite an interesting read:
http://www.jrf.org.uk/knowledge/findings/socialpolicy/SP93.asp

I agree children need consistent well defined boundaries of what is right and wrong. I just happen to believe that smacking is not required.

I don't believe my children will turn out wrong because they have not been smacked, nor did I go wrong because I was smacked. I just believe that I have learnt better techniques to deal with bad behaviour.
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Listen to Lizzy, she's always right! as said by Jovial

[Selik]

[Lizzy]

Thank you
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Listen to Lizzy, she's always right! as said by Jovial

[Mantyluoto]

i have to agree with Lizzy, exclusion, to a small child is devastating, they hate and will learn from it.

[Drizzt]

Wow, this thread got busy over the weekend! I sooo need t'internet at home!

Lizzy - I agree, that post was well put.

But I do feel smacking is a legitimate tool for discipline and can be positively re-inforced. When I was smacked I'd be warned first, sometimes twice, then came the handprint on the backside. I knew I'd had my chances and gone over the top. It taught me to respect my parents because they didn't go about it in a thuggish or bullying way. I was also excluded, grounded, ignored, rebuked verbally (something Grace put very well) and all sorts. The combination of all of these mean I've grown up to be a fairly reasonable guy (he says hoping... )

We also had two dogs when I was younger who my ma and da 'trained' (for want of a better term... it is 9.30 on a Monday morning ). When they got out of line, they were disciplined as well and again smacking (lightly on the nose) may sometimes be used. The digs were not, in any way, scared of us. They ended up two of the most wonderfully-natured dogs I've known.

National Service - if it could be done the way it used to be done when my grandparents did it, then I'd be up for this. Yobs and idiots would go in as muppets and come out with a trade. Naturally not all people responded well and never will but still, it could be an option.

Er think that's it... just had a sales call and my train of thought's gone!
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Pagan Music