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Kids don't you just love them!!
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Selik



Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 1524
Location: South Shields

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jen wrote:
People who smack are generally desperate to be in control of there kids,

As for the whole disipline smacks or abuse and when you draw the line. Personally I don't agree at all, but if it leaves a mark or the child can't sit down etc, then its abuse.

I just noticed that this is in the sport section Confused


I don't agree at all with the first comment. Having been smacked I know that my parents were certainly not desperate at any time because I was never out of control.
I also don't ever remember being scared of my parents because they smacked me. I've always respected my parents and it's not been changed by smacking.

Secondly I think I went a bit off here. What I meant was that because there are now so many people against smacking, even the slightest tweek around the ear has become abuse to many people, which is ridiculous.
And mentioning my nephew, I meant that when you see what real abuse is, then you know that a smack as a rebuke is not abuse.
However, i'd like to say that i'm not condoning 'beating' here, a single smack is acceptable.
I also agree with Death on the subject of schools, due to the fact that in schools all the teachers can do is give detention. And who cares? You just skip it.

Lastly, I think this started out being about kids shooting Manty in the face during paintballing.
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Mantyluoto



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 573
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it did!!

i'm still waiting for a mod to lock it down.
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Lizzy



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 674
Location: the wilds of the West

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mantyluoto wrote:
my wife owns a childrens nursery. and she's the boss literally!!

they all love her and do as they're told. she scares me!!!



Without the need to smack the children. Good behaviour does not require smacking to achieve it.

It was the fear that the smack could become more if he lost his temper that scared me about my father. Alot of parents that smack do it as a first line of discipline, it's negative parenting. What do they do when the smacking doesn't work?

Programmes like Supernanny have shown beautifully the effectiveness of positive parenting. It's hard work but so much more effective and rewarding for the parent and child in the long run.

If someone hits a dog it's abuse. They can get prosecuted.

As for discipline in schools, well that is a complicated area. The lack of respect for teachers/figures of authority needs addressing but what the answer is I have no idea. Brutality is not it.

I actually think that part of the problem is the belief that some young people seem to have, that they should be able to have whatever they like straight away, handed on a plate. It's what my hubby calls the video culture. What he means is that because of videos you can watch pretty much whatever tv you want when you want (made more so by sky plus). Consequently no one has to wait for something it's always there. That has crossed over into life. Part of that has to be blamed on the buy it now pay never culture we live in.

There is a lot to be said for teaching our children the honest values about respecting people and the world we live in and that if you want something you have to 'earn' it, one way or another. Teach the spiritual values in life not the materialistic ones.

The above is generalising alot, I know, and are just some of my musings on the subject.

I realise it may seem inappropriate to have this discussion in sport but it is proving an interesting and controversial one.
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Last edited by Lizzy on Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jen



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 149
Location: Somerset, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Manty! (stop tempting fate Wink )

I do understand what you're saying Selik and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and debate about subjects is the only way we learn how to understand and come to terms with the way that others do things.

To be entirely honest when I think of parents smacking their children I'm remembering the amazingly countless times that I've seen very young mums and dads walloping their kids round the head because they wouldn't stand still and wait while they finished texting/having a fag/chatting and swearing with their mates (pick any I've seen them all! plus feeding babies coca cola in bottles!!)
Alot of people that I see really don't know genuinely what their doing and it's a real shock when you have this little person to deal with day in day out (speaking from personal experience). Parenting classes I think would do wonders for those who don't have support already and I'm not saying that those that smack are bad parents I'm saying that they are making bad choices - maybe not for the moment but maybe in years to come when their kids are teenagers and hanging around on street corners thinking its okay to hit others. I went to school with a lot of children who were smacked and these days they're doing drugs, mugging oldies and beating up people with their gang of like minded associates. Smacking doesn't turn kids in to thugs don't get me wrong but it doesn't help understanding whats right and wrong either. It just blurs the boundries and for some who don't have a very loving environment it just goes badly.

Also before I get my head bitten off I'm not, NOT picking on young mums and dads. I'm just saying what I see everytime I go out with my children and I really do see it everyday.

and well said Lizzy!
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Mantyluoto



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 573
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fate tempting! me! never!!!!

hehehe

Claire has never, ever smacked a child, apart from the fact she'd be shut down its poor parenting, in my opinion, to resort to smacking, i agree with Jen that, some, young parents smack children to stop them "misbehaving" but remember that most of them are only children too.

Supernanny does do some good things, some "weird" too as my good lady has just said to me.
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DeathJunior



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Louth, England

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Lizzy, this is turning into an interesting topic... perhaps instead of locking it, move it somewhere more ... appropriate ... perhaps open a debate forum, or something, that would be interesting.
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Mantyluoto



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 573
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

probably not allowed to. just don't tell the mod's its here and we'll be ok....
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Lizzy



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 674
Location: the wilds of the West

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought you already knew us mods are omnipresesent Laughing

I will ask James about a debate section though.
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Mantyluoto



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 573
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daft i thought!!!
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Parmenion



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 584

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

think of it this way, if you start any job you get trained in it, your monitored and evaluated and it takes time to become proficcient at it.

Parenting is a full time job and harder than most, yet you get no training, no manuals your just in at the deep end, and as has been emntioned kids these days are becomeing parents when they are still kids them sleves...its a self devolving society...and we wonder why we have chav culture?? kids are bringing up kids...where are they learning discipline?? their parents never had any or learned any ...
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Drizzt



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 1081
Location: Easington, UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Selik on this one. I was smacked as a kid, often and hard (I was a bit of a sod), but I was never scared of my parents and smacking wasn't the only form of discipline. There was also the whole idea of being sent to my room, grounded... well you get the idea.

Smacking's not a negative thing. It wasn't for me anyway and I did get some good hidings. The idea that it teaches kids violence is... well I'll be diplomatic and say I disagree with that in the strongest possible terms. If some kids are allowed to take it that way, that's the fault of the parent. my sister and I, and the majority of the other kids in my family, have NOT been taught violence by smacking. In fact the only 'bed eggs' in the family are a couple of cousins who haven't been smacked and whose ma is a bit of a goody goody.

What smacking, and other punishments, taught me is where to draw the line. I had boundaries and knew not to cross them (or get caught Twisted Evil).

The idea of leaving a mark annoys me too - are we talking a red one, or a bruise? For me, a nice bright red handprint on the arse can be a wonderful wake up call. Bruising is too far though. Hitting about the head is too far.

If smacking doesn't work, that means the parent isn't using other discipline effectively and are too reliant on smacking... or, in some cases, they're not hitting hard enough. Hitting your kid should be the last resort but for god's sake, make sure they KNOW just how far they've pushed it.

A light smacking or two while the kid's young, along with other discipline, can save a kid from making that dumb mistake as a teen which leads to arrest or other trouble. Or at least it did with me. I'm not a parent though, but I stand by my parents' methods because they worked.

Teachers need more power to discipline kids. Corporal punishment should be brought back. Yes, if it's needed, give them a couple of warnings first but if teachers were given the authority to physically discipline kids then a lot of trouble would stop. Not all - no solution is perfect.

This is a cool topic!! Very Happy We really need somewhere to have more threads like this. I know it says in the rules this isn't a social forum but... of course it is. Twisted Evil
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Lizzy



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 674
Location: the wilds of the West

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drizzt wrote:
. The idea that it teaches kids violence is... well I'll be diplomatic and say I disagree with that in the strongest possible terms.



I maintain that smacking can show a child that one way of dealing with things not going the way you want, is to hit. I realise the reasons some kids turn out badly isn't solely the result of smacking, but coming from a home where violence is the norm is a contributing factor.

I am also proof that smacking doesn't make you turn out bad necessarily, but I do have issues with the way I was brought up and as a parent I have made the conscious choice not to use smacking as a form of discipline.

I believe it is wrong

Drizzt wrote:
. or, in some cases, they're not hitting hard enough


I can't believe you said that.

I have had a response from James and he is going to open up a Debates part of the forum with some rules. I will move this thread there when it opens.
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Drizzt



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 1081
Location: Easington, UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By 'not hard enough' I mean I've seen parents giving kids what are more like love-taps than smacks which removes any point in smacking in the first place. If you're going to smack, do it properly.

I don't consider smacking to be violence in all honesty. Taken too far, yes, but cracking a kid on the arse for misbehaving is just a measure of discipline to me.

But, I guess it all depends on the parent. Lizzy if you can bring up your kids without the need for smacking, that's fantastic and more power to you for doing so. Very Happy

I believe sm acking works. It worked on me, my parents before me and most of my family. So long as it's not the ONLY measure being used and isn't taken too far, it's fine.
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Mantyluoto



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 573
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

does that mean i'll get my paintball topic back?
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Jen



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 149
Location: Somerset, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep!

I feel for teachers because of really unruly pupils. They can't physically touch them not even to restrain them from battering another pupil, in most cases they're only allowed to put themselves in between the pupils.
The thing is though that you learn proper social conduct from your family to begin with so it all goes back to early disipline and being taught right from wrong.
At school I skipped lessons, handed in homework late (or not at all Embarassed ) and snuck over the back gate to go out of grounds at lunchtime, but I wasn't verbally or physically abusive to anyone and was just doing the usually teenage rebellion thing. I certainly don't think that I would have deserved a smack for that.
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