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Fantasy: is it innovative enough and should it be?
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Lizzy



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 674
Location: the wilds of the West

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum NicciM Smile .

Hopefully lots of people will be getting lots of books in their stocking this Christmas then Very Happy
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NicciM



Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I buy my boyfriend at least 5 every year. Working for a major chain bookstore with good discounts helps.
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Lizzy



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 674
Location: the wilds of the West

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NicciM wrote:
Working for a major chain bookstore with good discounts helps.


I'm not jealous, honest Razz

I think we are lucky in this genre, as almost by definition the authors have got vivid imaginations so hopefully it will continue to evolve.

I believe, cut down to the bare bones, there are two stores:

1. A person goes on a quest
2. A stranger rides into town
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NicciM



Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 27
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lizzy wrote:
NicciM wrote:
Working for a major chain bookstore with good discounts helps.


I'm not jealous, honest Razz

I think we are lucky in this genre, as almost by definition the authors have got vivid imaginations so hopefully it will continue to evolve.

I believe, cut down to the bare bones, there are two stores:

1. A person goes on a quest
2. A stranger rides into town


how about a book that ends and starts with the same line?

"The man in black fled across the dessert and the gunslinger followed"

~swoons, dies, faints etc...~
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Deornoth



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 446

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lizzy wrote:
I believe, cut down to the bare bones, there are two stores:

1. A person goes on a quest
2. A stranger rides into town


But isn't that just one story told from two different perspectives? Wink
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DeathJunior



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Louth, England

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things and Lou will agree with me here due to our classes:

Read about Vladimir Propp and his stages and archetypes.

Also Read Chris Voglers a writers journey.

You'll find that most stories are the same set of "basic principles" just in a different order or with different characters wearing different masks, different worlds. Basically all stories are supposed to tell the basic journey of the hero to teach the reader life lessons. Although I don't think I've explained it as well here but I think Propp had 31 stages a hero could pass through in a potential four act structure whereas Vogler has 12 which encompass a lot of what Propp says. I seem to be preferring Voglers theories to Propps while reading through his book "The Writers Journey".
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Alia



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess a lot of fantasy is really a transformed Victorian coming-of-age story. We have a disadvantaged kid (poor, orphan, outsider, of another race/nationality, generally despised, with disabilities, or any combination of the above) who must discover his/her fate and turns out to be: king's lost heir, magically talented, particularly talented in any discipline, unnaturally lucky, the only key to solve a mystery, last of his/her ancient race (or all of the above). It's really like Frances Hodgson Burnett and her "Little Princess".
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Drizzt



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 1081
Location: Easington, UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are stories which manage to avoid bing part of the usual group, NicciM's Thomas Covenant series being one which does stand out in my memory.

So, moving on, what is the most 'innovative' book we've all read? I don't mean the best, or our favourite, but which book/story has made you sit up and think "Damn, that was a good idea"?
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DeathJunior



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Louth, England

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am Legend

Plain and simple
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Drizzt



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which fantasy book? Razz (good answer though!)
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DeathJunior



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Louth, England

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am legend is a fantasy book.

Just not a pure fantasy book. It's a sci-fan book based on our world but paralell. But ok if you want fantasy i'd say ...


Anansi Boys or other than that i'm not sure, especially since taking the degree and reading Propp and Vogler I tend to see the theory versions of the books ... Possibly Terry Goodkinds Sword of Truth series. Or at least until the fourth or fifth book
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Drizzt



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
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Location: Easington, UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooh, brave man. Goodkind is.... well, he has his detractors. He also maintains he doesn't write fantasy, the muppet. But, he has his fans... kind of like Uwe Boll. And 'I am Legend' is nothing but horror, at least to me, but a very interesting book if you delve into it. But, that's another argument... Razz

For me, some of the most innovative books I've read are Scott Lynch's Locke Lamora efforts. Their characterisation is unique and fresh. Going back a while I'd have to echo NicciM's choice of Thomas Covenant. Despite the need for a thesaurus, they really brought the anti-hero to the fore in a way never since repeated. And I'd have to include James' Ascendants series since they deal with magic from a perspective I haven't read prior to them.
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DeathJunior



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Louth, England

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did an essay on I am Legend last year, got a first in it, it's much more than horror believe me. Some of the themes, ideas etc within it are amazing. The things you can pull out of it. His ideas on the scientific explanation of vampirism were excellent within. It's a sci-fi, horror, fantasy and a number of others.
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Drizzt



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 1081
Location: Easington, UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done, sir! Very Happy There is a chap who used to live 5 doors down from me, unemployed for years yet he had a doctorate in Home Economics and was nigh invincible at Countdown (damned nine-word machine, the sod).

Considering when it was written, it's an incredible book. The themes raised which are still able to be made relevant to nowadays are really cool and total gravy for essays. Then again we look at it form our own perspective, the 50s crowd would have seen it differently. But, yet again, a story which has stood the test of time.
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DeathJunior



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Louth, England

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mum can do the maths on countdown with frightening speed. Family tradition I think, although it stopped with me. I'm too busy in my youth to do countdown, plus with the new presenter old Des boy i'm not too interested in it.
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